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Post by Toryn Farr on Oct 25, 2001 18:04:41 GMT -5
hey, lets not go around misquoting people now. I never said Lucas is god, it just happens to be a known fact that he created star wars. I didn't say the HST comes before the OT, i said it was made before it. Bria and the HST didn't exist when the movies were made, any references are simply Crispin warping the films to fit her mary sue fantasies.
And since when is Crispin the final word on star wars?? Why do we have to accept everything she (and other authors for that matter) as being fact?? We already know many of them are biased, and it comes through in their writing. I'm not really saying there's anything wrong with that, it would be stupid if everyone loved the same characters. But I think that just means we have to take everything with a grain of salt. I think Lucas is the only one who truely loved it all equally, but its his creation, anyone would be the same way if it was theirs.
What Crispin did was take the movies, and create situations with Bria that were supposed to explain everything. And if you listen carefully, when Han says "hokey religions," he's talking to Obi-Wan, and he's actually referring to the Jedi. *gasp!* No one goes around all the time making references to your past life. You move on. You talk about the present. Crispin was just trying to make her character seem more important.
Han didn't really wait ten years for Bria. In fact, I don't think he really waited at all. There were other adventures, other women. True, none of them were quite as serious as Bria, but there were others. He was moving on with his life. When she came back, its totally understandable how he went back to her. She was playing him for a fool, and he fell for it. He began cared about her again. When she left him the second time, he was hurt deeper than he could prolly ever admit. Still, I think he cared about her to soem capacity. I don't think he really wanted to, but he did. Her death allowed him to let go, to finally be free of her.
I don't understand how you can say that Han took so long to put the moves on Leia. The hug in the trash compactor, the wink at the award ceremony. You can't discredit those simply because some EU author decides she wants to change things.
dammit, i have so much more to say, but, once again, i've run out of time. @$&*!
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Post by CMinor on Oct 25, 2001 19:01:15 GMT -5
*sigh* Oh well at least now we can have a decent debate about it without being told to shut up: As for glitter's comments: "1) Han was never himself around Leia, only around Chewie and the kids, as she admits herself. He was himself around Bria." - This is a common misconception because it's been done in so many fanfics; that Han is a nice guy who hides his feelings and tries to act like a mercenary. Han is NOT an actor. He has never been an actor. In ANH where he was seen as a mercenary - that WAS Han. It was not an act. Han goes through a visible change in the films. Han is one to wear his heart on his sleeve. Leia also says "Han is no mystery man. What you see is absolutely what you get." "2) Han and Bria were much more physically intimate than Han and Leia, and they were given lots more innuendos than Han and Leia were." -Han and Bria were given more INNUENDOS that Han and Leia. That doesn't mean they were more intimate. Han and Leia have three kids, so I'm guessing at some point they had to be intimate. In publications other than the novels, such as comic books, Han and Leia are shown to be much more intimate. "3) Han and Bria were given more love scenes than Han and Leia were." So what? Does that mean that Han and Bria made love more than Han and Leia? Does this mean Han was more in love with Bria than he is with Leia? What you are talking about here is an author than has been able to put more love scenes into her books, due to time, story lines, etc. "4) Han and Bria actually act in love when they are together, instead of Han and Leia who only talk business. Even in TAB when they are newly in love it's not anywhere near the amount of tendernes and love Han and Bria had in TPS" - The evidence you can give here is one of a sexual nature, and love flows deeper than this. Sure, Han and Bria kissed more in the books, held hands etc, but when it came down to it, Bria left him (twice) because of her cause, and Leia married Han despite the wealth and power her cause stood to gain if she had married a certain someone else ... "5) Han and Bria's reunion in RD was much more passionate and loving than the flat, unemotional one Han and Leia got in Balance Point. In RD you could tell they loved each other passionately. In BP you could not tell that with Han and Leia." - Yeah, you're right, the reunion Han and Leia got was flat and unemotional. Which is why this huge campaign started - to get H/L what they deserved. However, it is also hinted that Han and Leia got a little 'private time' of their own a little later on. han and Bria had the luxury of making up in a bedroom. Han and Leia didn't. It would have been a little out of character for them to have ... erm ... 'got it on' in the middle of a battle zone. "6) Han told Bria everything in PS, by the CT where Leia and Han have been married for a DECADE she still doesn't know anything." - Han was nineteen when he met Bria and had just escaped from a ship where he grew up. There's not much to tell. Also, in one book, Leia says to Luke "Han is Han. What more do I need to know?" This implies that, for both of them, 'clearing the air' is a non-issue. They love each other and they know each other and they don't need to know every twist and turn about their pasts in order to cultivate a trusting relationship.
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Post by CMinor on Oct 25, 2001 19:02:01 GMT -5
"7) Han proposed to Bria right away, he waited four years for Leia."
- Once again, Han at age thirty-ish is older and wiser to Han aged nineteen. There are many ins-and-outs to this particular point which I won't go into, but Han had a better idea of the implications and responsibilites of marraige when he proposed to Leia, and it was a much bigger step for him then when he proposed to Bria (which wasn't really a proposal; I believe the exact wording was 'We could even get married - if you want', and that came about five seconds after he actually got up the courage to say 'I love you').
"8) Bria never almost dumped him for another guy. She only loved him and only him for ten years."
Leia had a lot of responsibility riding on her relationship with Isolder, and as much as we hate to admit it, given Leia's position, it wasn't something that she could just dismiss lightly.
And if we're going to start finger pointing, Leia never left him in some flop-house on Coruscant either. Oh, and she didn't *cough* get back together with him *cough*, and wind up pointing a blaster at him the next day while ruining his reputation with all his aquaintences (which is quite deadly in his profession).
So, no, Bria didn't ALMOST dump him. She DID dump him. Twice.
"9) Han would never leave Bria like he did in the NJO to Leia."
Well, Bria didn't give him much chance to leave her, did she? She kept running off before he got the chance.
Seriously, now. That's an assumption not based on fact. I could easily say 'but Han will never leave Leia again because he knows he was stupid'. Han and Bria's relationship didn't last long enough fo them to reach that kind of a turning point. So point 9 is just a biased opinion. Which you're allowed to have, but you can't trot it out as a fact.
10) Han thought of Bria fondly while he and Leia were estranged and never thought of Leia.
"Laughing to himself, he recalled preparing spiced aric tonuge for leia, when he'd spirited her away to Dathomir during his very wrongheaded courtship of her."
"Han thought about Leia on Gyndine ..."
"When he considered, even for a split-second, where he might be without them, the angry words and recriminations that had spewed from him since Chewie's death pierced him like a rapid fire ..."
"11) Han was devestated and heartbroken when he and Bria broke up but not at all when he and Leia split up in the NJO"
I seem to remember Han saying to Bria after they broke up (oh, this was for the SECOND time, btw) something along the lines of 'If I ever see you again in this life, I'll shoot you on sight'. Ahh, true love.
12) Bria would never be jealous of Chewie like Leia was and wish he would go away. What a cold hearted woman.
Once again, an uninformed assumption. Bria never KNEW Chewie, nor Han when he was with Chewie, so there is no way to claim that Bria would react a certain way.
"He had that source [of wisdom] somewhat in the person of the woman standing next to him, in his wonderful wife. Leia had loved Chewie as much as he had . . . her grief was no less, he knew..."
You can't love someone, be jealous, and wish they would go away all at the same time.
"... yet she had buried it within her, had put her own feelings back for now so that she could help Han attend to his."
Oh, what a cold-hearted woman!
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starwarsfan68
Full Member
There is one one true movie romance Han and Leia
Posts: 56
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Post by starwarsfan68 on Oct 26, 2001 15:34:07 GMT -5
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU CMINOR!!!!! At last someone has truly explained all the reasons the Han and Leia were destined to be together and that there really is no comparison between Han's relationship with Bria and his relationship with Leia. By the way I like your fanfic!
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Post by Toryn Farr on Oct 26, 2001 18:35:03 GMT -5
Yes, thank you Cminor. Oh, your sig reminds me: While we're discussing the books, lets not forget Captive to Evil, and, more importantly, Hero for Hire. hfh is seriously the best SW book I have ever read. Ever. In it Han explains his past to some monk in Jabba's palace, and basically sums everything up, including Bria and Leia. I'm too lazy to go get it and directly quote it, but it says how he used to care about bria, even after she betrayed him, he was upset about her death, but he was able to move on. then he goes on and starts worrying about leia, where she is, if shes ok, what jabbas doing to her. There are a lot of really cute parts where Han mentions Leia. theres something where he says something like he helped at yavin cuz he didnt want to see the pain on her face, he knew that every time one rebel ship was destroyed, it hurt her. *melt melt* ;D
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Post by glitterbug on Oct 26, 2001 23:29:19 GMT -5
Toryn that book you just mentioned is a travesty on Han's character. It got the Bria/Han thing all wrong, and it was totally out of character how Han told his life story to someone he barely knew.
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starwarsfan68
Full Member
There is one one true movie romance Han and Leia
Posts: 56
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Post by starwarsfan68 on Oct 27, 2001 6:38:03 GMT -5
I only have one question< Who wrote Hero for Hire. I have missed a lot of the post ROTJ books mostly becasue of life in general and i took a list of the novels off the net a few weeks ago and i don't see that one. It sound like one I want to read though. Or is it fan fic and if so where can I find it.
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Post by Toryn Farr on Oct 27, 2001 7:30:24 GMT -5
Its actually a children's book, written by Donna Tauscher. I just put it up in my bookstore, so you can get it through there.
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Post by zrm17@yahoo.com on Oct 27, 2001 10:55:12 GMT -5
Wait a minute there, glitterbug, are you trying to say that the only time Han has ever been in character is during the HST? Because that's what it sounds like, and that doesn't make any sense at all. You're complaining that we're basing our arguments on post-ROTJ books and the movies, and yet your entire argument can only be based on 3 books, all by the same author who, as someone stated before, was obviously trying to make her character far more important in the grand scheme of things. You cannot say that Han is out of character for every single book we've talked about. By your statements, the only true books are those 3, and if that's what you think, then maybe you should just keep reading them over and over again, because things changed, he moved on, and he fell in love again.
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Post by Ophelia496@aol.com on Oct 27, 2001 11:09:29 GMT -5
8) OK. I started reading through these arguments but it all got way too long. Here's my 2 cents. First of all, any attempt to compare Bria to Leia is kind of a pointless endeavor to begin with. Anyone ever been dumped for someone else, and compared yourself to the other person, desperately searching for a reason why? ::raises hand:: I have! The trick is, there IS no reason. Love just is. Han was young when he fell in love with Bria, a very different person than he is in the movies. He loved her the way you love someone when your heart has never been broken. Then she broke his heart. She was messed up. She had too many of her own problems to stay. And I honestly think that sacrificing herself to the cause of the Rebellion was a redeeming act that made up for that betrayal. Han knew she was messed up when he fell for her. He didn't mean to, it just happened. And then although she never wanted to hurt him in the beginning, Bria stabbed him in the back. She's a tragic figure. You know as you read that she's confused and doesn't always know what's right. She lives in a very screwed up galaxy. So Bria dies and Han's out of the Empire, he's got Chewie and he has a bunch of adventures. He goes with Salla. He does scores and scores of illegal things. He gets even more hardened than he was before, and he meets Leia. Of course his relationship with her is going to be different. For starters- I don't know WHO said she was sane, but if someone blew up MY planet I don't think I'd have the mental reserve to crack sarcastic remarks at stormtroopers- she's messed up too, in her own way. She's an emotionally closed-off workaholic b1tch. Han is a surly, lawbreaking, egotistical, self-centered criminal. They're perfect for each other! They clash in a delicious and fantastic way, although the initial attraction on Han's part is quite obvious. Leia's remark "it's a wonder he cares about anything... or anybody" hints that she has some kind of feeling for Han, too. They both know somewhere in their unconsious minds that there's more to each other than meets the eye. They're both idealists who've experienced a lot of loss and become tough as nails as a result of it. And they will eventually be able to understand each other better than anyone else because of that, but first they have to get past each other's barriers. With the amount of pain they've both had in their lives, you can't expect either of them to just open up right away. Maybe Han could when he was younger with Bria, but he's what, 30 in ANH? Two different women. Two different loves. Bria helped a little to make Han the way he was when he met Leia, and he wouldn't be the same person if he hadnt loved her once. Your first love is always special. So is your last love. Bria is one and Leia is the other
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Post by glitterbug on Oct 27, 2001 12:21:01 GMT -5
Nope, I'm not saying Han is only in character in the HST. He's in character (for the most part) in the movies, except probably ROTJ. But for the postROTJ books, I can count on one hand the number of times he's been properly characterized. He turns into a lapdog househusband, losing anything interesting that ever appealed audiences to him in the first place. The only time I really think Han has been written in character postROTJ would be Hero's Trial. THAT is the Han I know and love. In Balance Point he is quite in character too. As a matter of fact, Kathy Tyers has gone on record of saying Luke loves Mara FAR more than Han loves Leia, therefore he obviously doesn't love Leia very much Dr. Tamwe, you make some good points...and I like that you think that Leia is a bitch, which she basically is. Bria is very sweet and nice, I'm sure you couldn't call Leia that! Now, I know you think Bria is his first love, Leia is his last, therefore Leia is better, blah blah, well let's look at an analogy here. Titanic anyone? Jack was Rose's FIRST LOVE, AND the love of her life. Not just her first love that turned her into the woman she was when she met her future husband. Rose loved Jack so much, that even though she married someone else (just like Han did), Jack remained the love of her life. She even went back to him in the afterlife! And THAT is what will happen with Han and Bria Han might have married Leia, ended up with her, but that DOESN'T mean that she was the love of his life and that he loved her the most. If the HST were movies, and ANH, ESB, and ROTJ were books afterwards EVERYONE would say Han and Bria were soulmates and that Leia was a rebound and second choice, just like Rose's hubsnad was after Jack died Bria died, Han couldn't be with her, so eventually he married someone else, just like Rose did. If Bria had not died, Han would have waited forever for her, just like he did when she left him (ten years, anyone? That's damn dedicated And proof that Han and Bria will end up in the afterlife like Jack and Rose? Why does Han say "I know" in ESB? He knows Bria is dead, he knows he is going to die soon (or thinks he will). He knew Bria said "I know" to him when he told her she loved him, what better way to tell her "I'm coming, honey" without actually saying it, since Leia is right there?
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Post by Toryn Farr on Oct 27, 2001 13:35:09 GMT -5
dr. tamwe, thanks for posting. good points. glitter, I have absolutely no idea what you just said. I re-read your post, and I am utterly confused. Han and Leia are like Jack and Rose?? WTF?? I'm not quite sure how to argue that, only to say that it doesnt make any sense. Now, as far as the "if the HST were movies and the OT were books thing" I have this to say: The HST is EU. Get over it. The OT was made waaaay before the HST was even an idea in Crispins warped little brain. The character of Leia was created before Bria, and Han and Leia's relationship was created before Crispin decided to slap him with Leia. Meaning: In the OT, any references made to Bria are simply Crispin deciding that she wanted them to be there. You cant use them as fact, Lucas didn't place them there. If the HST were movies (which they arent) I doubt SW would be what it is. Whether Crispin likes it or not, Lucas is the only reason she was able to write those books. You all better get used to that. And how can Han possibly be out of character in the movies?? The movies are canon, if thats how Han was in ROTJ, then thats how he was. People can change, Lucas can decide that Han changed after he got out of carbonite. It makes sense. What you're saying still supports Dr. Tamwe's point that you're basing Han's character on the HST. I'm sorry, but I really don't think thats a logical way of going about it. ok, i just read my post. Sorry if that came out so harsh, i just spent 3 hours painting kids faces. that doesn't get me in a good mood. Still, my arguements remain the same.
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Post by glitterbug on Oct 27, 2001 13:46:07 GMT -5
I happen to like the books better than the movies. I think they going into grayer areas the movie don't, are richer in characterization, more complex, more original, and more lovingly crafted. eg. 1 Lucas doesn't like Han, Crispin loves Han. Which one do you think is going to do a better job with him? And Toryn, you misunderstood. What I meant is that Han and Bria are like Jack and Rose. Just like Rose eventually moves on and marries someone else but still considers Jack the love of her life, it is like Han and Bria, how Han eventually moves on and marries someone else, but still loves Bria
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Post by Toryn Farr on Oct 27, 2001 13:54:41 GMT -5
When does anything say he still loves Bria? If I remember the movies (read: canon) correctly, he loves Leia. Any references made to Bria in the EU (read: not canon) are simply fond memories of the past. It doesn't mean he still loves her, and theres nothing to suggest he would go back to her. I still don't know where you're getting that from.
And as far as who likes Han better, this is just getting stupid. Let me make this clear: LUCAS CREATED STAR WARS. NOT CRISPIN. HAN IS LUCAS'S CHARACTER. I can't really say who likes him better, cuz I really don't know. But I really doub that Lucas hates Han. Why would he create such a character if he hated him? Anywho, you say Crispin loves Han. That would mean she loves a character originally written by Lucas. So I really don't understand how anyone can write Han's character better than Lucas himself.
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Post by glitterbug on Oct 27, 2001 14:11:41 GMT -5
You're right Lucas created Star Wars and Han. But it is possible that someone can love someone else's creator more than the creator herself. Lucas' favorite character is obviously Luke. (Luke S. = Lucas). Lucas was supposedly jealous Han became more popular than Luke, which is why he downplayed his role in Jedi.
And Han would have gone back to Bria if she hadn't died. That was blatantly obvious from the HST.
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