The Great Bria Bashing ... err...debate...

[Toryn Farr]

Ok, this thread is for Guri, who has posted twice in my guestbook. Anyone is free to respond, as always.

Guri, this stuff really belongs here, so this is where I'm putting it. Feel free to come and post more, it really makes it so much more interesting when people don't always agree.

Guri's comments:
on 10/17: Bria rocks! What is wrong with you for not liking her. She is smart, beautiful, and kicks ass. She would whip Leia in a fight. If she hadn't left Han, Han would've never fallen for Leia! Besides, Bria is a MUCH better name than Leia, even Han says so!

and on 10/21: Bria is so much more beautiful than Leia ever was. HA HA!

[Toryn Farr]

What's wrong with me for not liking her?
Actually, I don't really know. I wasn't aware that there might be a problem with me because I don't like a certain character. Is this something I should be concerned about?? Should I be going to the doctor??
Actually, I didn't have a problem with Bria until I visited the JC and met all those wonderful Bria fanatics. When I first read the HST, I actually really liked it. I continued to like it until I realized how seriously people took it. It really sickens me to think that someone can consider an EU character (read: non-canon) so important compared to the love of Han's life as clearly shown in the movies. So I guess my "problem" is that I believe that Leia is Han's true soulmate, and I'm really sick of people trying to prove otherwise, when the only evidence is Crispin's wild fantasies.

She is beautiful, smart, and kicks ass
Really? I won't argue that she's beautiful, actually I agree with that one to some extent. I'm sure she had to be pretty in order to manipulate Han the way she does. As for smart, I'm not so sure. Come on, running away to a "pilgrim colony"?? Not a smart career move. I'm not saying she's dumb, she has to have some brains. The way she carries out her betrayal of Han is genius. As for kicking ass? She certainly kicked Han's ass to the curb.

She would whip Leia in a fight
Maybe if she had a whip, and Leia didn't. Now if they both had blasters (and also assuming this is going to be a fair fight), Leia would win. Check it out, she hardly ever misses. Bria would be dead before the fight even started. And if they didn't have any weapons, Leia would still win. She would be more determined to kick Bria%2Æ[atss. Plus, growing up on a planet without weapons, I'm sure she had some training in some sort of martial arts.

If she hadn't left Han, Han would've never fallen for Leia! First of all, this is a pointless arguement. She did leave Han. Twice. The second time, she betrayed him, betrayed his friends, and basically left him to fend for himself. Now, for your arguement's sake, lets say she wasn't such a coldhearted bitch. Han would still have fallen for Leia. He and Bria would have gotten tired of each other. Most relationships that start at 19 don't last long. She wanted to go off to the Rebellion, he didn't. She would have eventually left anyway. Their relationship never made it past a mutual physical attraction, and they never had the chemistry that Han and Leia did.

Besides, Bria is a MUCH better name than Leia, even Han says so!
Hmm, I don't remember that. Exactly when did he say Bria was a better name than Leia?? That's what I thought. Actually, Bria is the name of a garbage company where I live. They have these huge dumpsters and recycling trucks that say "BRIA" on them in big, white letters. I'm also willing to bet anything that they were around before the HST. Just makes me laugh. I wonder if that's where Crispin got the name??  

Bria is so much more beautiful than Leia ever was!
That's really your own personal opinion. I disagree, but I'm not really gonna argue it.

[[e-mail]]

Ummm.... yeah.  Bria was just a fling.  A young mistake Han made.  What next, are we going to start saying Salla is better than Leia?  Han may have had some girlfriends before Leia, but she is truly his soulmate.  Bria was a nutcase.  Leia is completely sane.  With Bria it was just young love, with Leia it is a relationship that will last a lifetime.  As for the fight thing?  Do you recall Leia kicking over stormtroopers in ROTJ?  She knows how to fight.  It irritated me in the HST to read of Han's past relationships, though obviously his character is the type to have had them.  But nothing can compare to what he has with Leia.

[glitterbug]

You know what I don't understand? Constantly bringing up Bria's "betrayal" are "proof" that Han never loved her, doesn't love her, that she sucks, etc. Just because she betrayed Han, it doesn't mean Han stopped loving her, or never really loved her. I'm sure you would all agree if Han cheated on Leia or something, Leia would be furious, but Han's betrayal in no way means Leia never loved him or would stop loving him.

Here are my reasons on why Han and Bria are the better couple. More to follow:

1) Han was never himself around Leia, only around Chewie and the kids, as she admits herself. He was himself around Bria.

2) Han and Bria were much more physically intimate than Han and Leia, and they were given lots more innuendos than Han and Leia were.

3) Han and Bria were given more love scenes than Han and Leia were.

4) Han and Bria actually act in love when they are together, instead of Han and Leia who only talk business. Even in TAB when they are newly in love it's not anywhere near the amount of tendernes and love Han and Bria had in TPS

5) Han and Bria's reunion in RD was much more passionate and loving than the flat, unemotional one Han and Leia got in Balance Point. In RD you could tell they loved each other passionately. In BP you could not tell that with Han and Leia.

6) Han told Bria everything in PS, by the CT where Leia and Han have been married for a DECADE she still doesn't know anything

7) Han proposed to Bria right away, he waited four years for Leia.

8) Bria never almost dumped him for another guy. She only loved him and only him for ten years.

9) Han would never leave Bria like he did in the NJO to Leia.

10) Han thought of Bria fondly while he and Leia were estranged and never thought of Leia.

11) Han was devestated and heartbroken when he and Bria broke up but not at all when he and Leia split up in the NJO

12) Bria would never be jealous of Chewie like Leia was and wish he would go away. What a cold hearted woman.

[glitterbug]

Here are my pre-debated arguments to people who ahve attempted to argue with me. The quotes below are Adi's, a sparring partner.


First you disregard my first four points by saying Bria is a Mary Sue. Let's say hypothetically she WAS. Well, most of my points did NOT have to do with Crispin's books. They had to do with POST ROTJ books where Han and Leia acted like business partners and any interaction was luke-warm at best  Another one of my points was the Chewie comic. Leia admits in there that Han was never himself around her. Real close couple aren't they?  <br>
>In ANH, Han is perfectly happy; he isn't >sad at all. A sad man doens't joke around >with his copilot and kiss bar girls. >Throughout the entire movie, he is >perfectly fine. He shows interest in Leia >in ANH; it's mainly because she was >reluctant to have a relationship with him >that there was that three year gap.

First "Jenny" was cut and doesn't exist  Therefore, she doesn't count. There was no time in Rebel Dawn for her scene to have happened. And Han hated Leia when he met her, which is a far cry from the way he loved Bria on first sight. The only interest he showed in her was to bug Luke and to rile her up, but besides that, he isn't interested. Obviously, if he doesn't make a move on her for there years, he's not interested.

>And if you watch ESB, it's perfectly >obvious their feelings for each other.

Every scene in ESB is Han thinking of Bria  When he says "Who's scruffy-looking?" that's a reference to Bria who called him that in TPS. When he kisses Leia and says "Stop what?" that's also a reference to Bria  And when he says "I know" of course that's a reference to him and Bria's first declaration of love  And it takes him so long to say "I love you" back to Leia beacuse of how Bria hurt him.

So your whole argument just went down the drain because ANY scene between Han and Leia in the movies can be referenced back to the HST and Han is clearly thinking of Bria the whole time he is with Leia  <br>
>>5) This involves another Mary Sue, Kathy Tyers. She wrote that book as if she were Mara. Del Rey wasn't satisfied with how she portrayed the reunion.

But it STILL HAPPENED. Like it or not, Han and Leia's reunion was unromantic and awkward, while Han and Bria's was passionate and lovey-dovey  <br>
>6) Lets keep in mind Han was 19 here. There >wasn't all that much to say. By the time he >meets Leia, so much more has happened to >him.

He still poured out his soul to her. And he never did that to Leia, even Leia knows it (read Corellian Trilogy and the Chewie comic). Who was he closer to?

>7) Most people never marry their high->school sweethearts. Those that do end in >divorce usually. By the end of RD, it's >obvious Hand bria would not have lasted.

The only reason they broke up was because of what Bria did. NOT HAN. Had Bria NOT done what she did, Han was all set to go off with her and spend the rest of her life with her. He was all set in the Paradise Snare to do the same. Both times they broke up it was because of BRIA'S doing, not Han's. So don't say Han didn't love her and want to spend the rest of his life with her, because he did.

>8)She loved him for TEN years. That's >pathetic. Get over it already! No one ever >takes that long to get over a person. The >whole Isolder issue was a result of Leia's >selfless dedication as I've explained and >her desire to do what is best for all as >opposed to what is best for just her. And >this might be a good time to bring up how >Han went after Leia when she 'left' him. He >just let bria go.

That she loved him for so long and so passionately shows that he was her soulmate. She couldn't ever love anyone else. Compare this to Leia who falls into some handsome guys arms while she's still WITH Han and then thinks about saying "I love you" to him after a couple of days of knowing him.

And Han did not "let Bria go". He had no way of knowing where she was. If he did, he surely would have gone after her. In the Hutt Gambit when he sees her, he tries to go after her.

Besides Han was incredibly devestated when she left, but when he and Leia broke up in the NJO? He barely thought of her. But he thought of Bria.

[glitterbug]

>9)Oh he wouldn't? Then why didn't he follow >her when she left? Why wasn't he reduced to >a sobbing baby when she died, if she meant >so much? Why does he have so many other >girlfriends after she's gone? Maybe it's >because he's moved on, unlike her.

First, as I said before, he couldn't follow her because she told him she needed to be alone and he respected that, and he had no idea of where she was. Secondly, Han WAS upset when she died, that's why it took him so long to put the moves on Leia. But Han doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve which is why he didn't cry when she died. But why was he all gung-ho on shooting the Death Star down? Because of Bria, of course. The enemy killed her so he wanted revenge on them.

And while Han had girlfriends, that is in character of him. I'm sure you would say it was in character if Leia and him broke up and he had other women. Quite simply, it is not in character for him to remain celibate and in mourning forever. The point is he never loved any of those women, and he wanted all of them to turn into Bria  He says in Rebel Dawn after he and Bria have sex, that it's the best morning in ten years he's had; obviously none of those women came that close in making him happy

[glitterbug]

>10) Han was remembering his past as all >humans do, as we are nostalgic creatures. >And he did think of Leia and how torn up >he'd be if she or the kids died. And he >fondly recalls their first kiss, if I >remember correctly. Plus let's not forget >how in Rebirth how he's happy to have Leua >by his side again. He obviously missed her >a great deal.

Compare how he felt about Bria to how he feels about the estrangement/reunion. He is FAR more nonchalant about the latter. When Bria and him break up he's completely devestated and reacts violently. When he and Leia break up, he barely cares, barely thinks of her.

With Leia he makes a half-heartedly makes an attempt to reconcile with her and she's the one who has to do all the initiating. Compare this with Bria where he initiates the whole reunion, and when he sees her he says part of him wants to go and kiss her until she was breathless, compared to Leia when he sees her in BP he just "stiffens his body" when she tries to hug him.

Then in Rebirth he says "He felt a little happiness to have his wife beside him." Compare this to his joyous and overwhelming reaction when he and Bria reunite. And also dont' forget in the HST he ALSO said he would be devestated and heartbroken if anything was to happen to Bria.

>11) He was hurt sure, but he sure got over >bria pretty quickly. Xaverri, Salla, >Jessa... Anyway, in the NJO, he's torn up >over Chewie. As I've said, he'd never lost >someone he loved before. His reaction was >natural. And as I said above, he was hurt >by the estrangement. He thinks about how >happy he is how he didn't ruin his >marriage. That seems like he cares to me.

As I said before, he's not the type to become celibate and in mourning forever. The important thing is that he didn't really love any of those women.

And he cared about the estrangement but the key word is in intensity of emotion. When Bria left him he was incredibly devestated and heartbroken. When he and Leia broke up, he was only mildly concerned. When he and Bria got back together he was overwhelmed with joy and happiness. When he and Leia got back together, he was just like "Eh, okay." and felt "a little happiness".

>12)Leia's expierenced so many deaths in her >life; Chewie's was just as painful for her. >Her reaction was from greif. As the books >and moveis show, they had a close >relationship as well. Chewie made Leia a >part of his honor family even. Plus Leia >continually fought for the good of all >people. Isn't it bria, who fought out of >revenge and hatred, the cold-hearted woman?

So if Leia was so close to Chewie, why did she tell 3PO she "always wished he would go away"? Hmm?

>Who did Han join the Rebellion for? Hint: >it wasn't bria.

Oh, let's remember this: How long did it take Han to join the Rebellion? 3 years? Who goes to say that if Bria had stayed in TPS, or not died in RD he would have joined eventually. Just because he didn't join righy away means squat. And who was about to leave who at the beginning of ESB?

>Who is he referring to when he says his >life would be empty without her? Hint: it >isn't a weakminded, exploited pilgrim.

He says the exact same thing about Bria in TPS, so there goes your theory down the drain. And it's obviously true with Bria, because when she leaves he's torn up and he pines away for her for ten years. When he and Leia break up, he barely notices, he's too busy joyriding with Droma.

>Who does he think about when in carbonite?
>Hint: It wasn't some obessive, poor leader >of the Rebellion.

Um, you make this too easy Adi. BRIA. Why did Han say "I know"? Because Bria said that to him in their first declaration of love. He was echoing the words back to her.

>And let's not forget: Who did Lucas put >with Han?

Yes, Han ended up with Leia, but that DOESN'T mean he loved her the most.  

[Toryn Farr]

lmao, glitter. *sigh* I already have a huge headache right now, so i'll get to everything else later. i just have this one comment:

I never said that Bria's betrayal was proof that Han didn't love her. I agree that at one point in their lives, they were in "love" (I call it infatuation, but as I said, I have a headache and don't want to get into that right now). I meant her betraya as proof that they were not soulmates, that she fell out of love with Han. I believe that the first time she left, Han sorta got over her, but when she came back, fell right into her little trap. At the time of her back-stabbing, he did still care for her. That's why he was so hurt. Its just proof that their relationship was not meant to last.

[[e-mail]]

You cannot compare Han thinking of Bria when they were estranged to Han not thinking of Leia in NJO.  Han was going through a terrible time in his life when he and Leia were separated.  He reverted back to the way he grew up:  ALONE.  He was grieving, which is something he hadn't really had to deal with in an extremely long time, at least as far as very close friends/family is concerned.  If Leia had ever left Han the way Bria did, I guarentee that he would be completely lost without her.  

And please, do not try to turn this around and say that obviously he liked Bria more because he wouldn't have left her the way he left Leia.  He would've done the same thing had the circumstances been different and Bria was there when someone close like Chewie died.  And where is all this stuff you're getting saying Leia doesn't want Chewie around?

[starwarsfan68]

My head is spinning from all that.       My only opinion is that any theories based on anything after ROTJ is nul and void.   Those books in my opinion aren't really true Han and Leia.  I can't see Han with anyone but Leia.   Bria was a teen-age fling and he still had some feelings for her when she came back to betray him because he was a loner (aside from chewie) and it was easy for him to fall back into familiar.   There is no question in my mind that Leia and Han are soulmates.

[glitterbug]

Thanks for the responses I don't have time to reply on everything, but whoever asked about Leia wanting Chewie to go away, in a comic between Vector Prime and Hero's Trial, Threepio meets with Leia and talks with her. She admits in there her and Han were never that close because Chewie was always in the way, and that she wanted Chewie to leave so Han could be only hers. She said that Han was never himself around her, and that Chewie was the one Han told everything to, not her, and that they were never that close. Gee, sure sounds like "soulmates" to me  

[[e-mail]]

All debating aside, I'm really curious about this comic.  Not doubting your sources, just very interested in reading it actually.  Where did it come from, when did it come out, and what's it called?  I obviously missed this one.

[Toryn Farr]

Its the Chewbacca comic, it came out pretty recently. its alright, mayhews introduction had me in tears, han's thing was pretty depressing too. And yes, Leia does say that sometimes she did wish that Chewie wasn't around, but lets keep in mind that everyone is pretty grief stricken in this thing.

[Toryn Farr]

woo, i actually have some free time to reply!

ok, the most major thing that pisses me off is how "everything with Han and Leia in the OT is a reference to the HST." Thats such crap. First of all, the OT was made waaaay before the HST. So technically the HST is really a reference to the OT. George didnt say "hmm, I think I'm gonna have Han and Leia do this and that, cuz I want Crispin to write this prequel stuff where Han does all this with another girl." Crispin stuck those things in because she believes her character should be so deadly important. Guess what? thats not how it is. She screwed up. Her assignment was simply to give a little background info on Han, why he was the way he was. Not create some new character that impacts everything single thing he does later in life.
Sure, Bria did influence the way he was. He was hurt by someone who he thought he loved, and it made him hard for him to trust people (granted he wasnt very trusting before Bria, either, she just made it worse). But that didn't stop him from making the moves on Leia. Remember the wink and smile during the award ceremony?? Ah, flirtation.
The reason it took Han and Leia three years really has nothing to do with Bria. Han was ready, it was Leia who wasn't. She was only 18 in ANH, and only fools rush into a relationship like that. *cough*.    Leia was also devasted by Alderaan, and was afraid to care for someone again. Han was completely sympathetic to this, and was willing to hang around until she was ready, gently pushing her along the way. I doubt he would have been so persistent or patient with Bria. And when he says "I know" in ESB, he's referring to the fact that he's really known all along, he's always been there, and he understands that now she's ready to face whabX™ge's feeling. And I really don't think at that exact moment in time he was thinking about Bria.

and my times running out. Maybe if i have a few extra minutes before I go out I'll post more, but I don't think I'll be able to.

[glitterbug]

ok, the most major thing that pisses me off is how "everything with Han and Leia in the OT is a reference to the HST." Thats such crap. First of all, the OT was made waaaay before the HST. So technically the HST is really a reference to the OT. George didnt say "hmm, I think I'm gonna have Han and Leia do this and that, cuz I want Crispin to write this prequel stuff where Han does all this with another girl."

Would everyone stop acting like Lucas is God or something? No offense, but the movies aren't that great. The HST definitely surpass them by far in characterization, development, richness of plot, and complexity. The movies are for kids. The HST is for young adults. So I get really annoyed when people go "Lucas said blah blah..therefore it must be true."

And Toryn you can't say that "the movies came before the HST" because the HST DOES some BEFORE THE MOVIES CHRONOLOGICALLY, doesn't it? Bria came before Leia, like it or not.

And Han WAS thinking of Bria during ESB Crispin wrote the trilogy to explain why Han was the way he was in the movies. Why he said "hokey religions" (the sham cult in TPS), why he had problems with female rebel leaders, why he was pissed when Leia told him to do what she told him to, why he was so reluctant to join the Rebellion, why he was so reluctant to get involved with Leia, why he eventually DID get involved with her (because he saw Bria in her), why he said "I know" instead of "I love you too" in ESB, why it took him so long to say "I love you" back to Leia, and why he was so happy when the Rebellion was defeated. The HST explains ALL of that. You can't accept those books and NOT believe that the movies are peppered with references to Bria all throughout them. Nearly every scene with Han and Leia had a reference to Bria in it.

The reason it took Han and Leia three years really has nothing to do with Bria. Han was ready, it was Leia who wasn't. She was only 18 in ANH, and only fools rush into a relationship like that. *cough*.    Leia was also devasted by Alderaan, and was afraid to care for someone again. Han was completely sympathetic to this, and was willing to hang around until she was ready, gently pushing her along the way. I doubt he would have been so persistent or patient with Bria.

Umm he waited ten years for her I think he would have been. He would have waited for her forever if she hadn't died. The only reason she died was so Han would be free to go to Leia, according to Crispin.

Han took so long to put the moves on Leia because he was heartbroken over Bria. Even when he eventually does get involved, he's very tentative and hesitant about it. In ROTJ it is Leia doing all the initiating and filling in of their relationship while Han looks hesitant and not quite sure. In ESB he's drawn to her because he's reminded of Bria in her

And the only reason people think Han and Leia are soulmates is because the movies came first. If the HST had come before the movies, no one would be a Han/Leia fan.