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Post by Toryn Farr on Nov 2, 2001 19:14:35 GMT -5
yeh, I'd be pissed too. I notified Crispin, whatever she does from now on, I dont care. As far as I'm concerned, the subject has been dropped. Back to the debate.... Shelley, great post. Yeh, I could imagine something like that happening, too. And I don't believe Han NEVER thought of Bria, I'm sure she crossed his mind a couple times, I just think its cheap to believe he thought of her constantly while he was with Leia. It really makes Han/Leia's relationship pretty pointless. btw, good to see u, leela
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adigallia1138@aol.com
Guest
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Post by adigallia1138@aol.com on Nov 2, 2001 21:55:47 GMT -5
I just wanted to discuss some topics that had recently been brought up. The idea that Han was 'hurt by love' in ANH, annoys me like nothing else, as does the idea that Han waited three years to get together with Leia because of bria. ANH was scripted by George Lucas in the mid seventies. He purposely wrote the character of Han Solo to be an indivdualistic egoist who cared merely for himself. Countless interviews and the Magic of Myth are testament to this fact, as is the movie itself. In not one scene is Han depressed or forlorn in any way at all. On the contrary, he's his enthusiastic and sarcastic self. In the final scene he looks so happy. How can anyone say that man is hurt by love? If he was, why was he consorting with bar girls (Jenny's in the novel; she's canon)? Why was he interested in Leia already? Not only was there the hug in the garbage masher or the "Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like her" line, but when he's talking to Luke in the Falcon about her there's an interesting comment made. After he wonders about "a princess and a guy like me," in the comic (also canon) it says approximately he wondered if he said that to annoy Luke or because he really meant it. It's obvious to any open-minded person who'll accept that what George says is true that Han isn't hurt at all in ANH. And even saying he's hurt goes against everything Lucas established for his character. It's arrogant to assume what we want about these characters; they're George's, not ours. And Lucas meant for Han to be Solo; an individualistic man who'd never truly been in love. This characterization is what would make Han's journey to general, friend and lover so much more powerful. It's a classic archetype that's been around for centuries; one EU character cannot change that. As for Han waiting three years because of bria, that's simply ludicrous. ESB was for a reason created three years after ANH, and as George didn't know bria existed (and still doesn't for that matter) it has nothing to do with her. Considered from an Earth viewpoint, ESB was made to be three years after to most effectively tell ESB's story. The Rebellion has had time to find a new base, Luke has matured and Han has stuck around for some reason (*coughleiacough*) A few years had to pass for those points in ESB to seem logical. However, it would have been unfair to the fans to pair up H/L off-screen. Lucas wanted to show that happening, but due to other plotlines, this had to occur a few years after ANH. Speaking in terms of just the characters, Han obviously couldn't do anything unless Leia was willing and she wasn't right after ANH. She, unlike Han, was hurt in ANH. Losing everyone you've ever known is unimaginable; it's completely understandable for her to be afraid to love again. Additionally, she was rebel leader; she didn't want to compromise that position for anything. After Alderaan, Leia needed to destroy the Empire; a realtionship would jeopridize that so at first she's unwilling. And though we've established Han was interested in Leia in ANH, he too is scared of his feelings. He's always been a loner and yet now he's drawn to a group of people, and specifically one woman. The strength of his feelings for her is likewise threatening to him; always an individualist, he's afraid of giving up the lifestyle he's always known. Luckily though, the two overcome these fears and start a wonderful relationship. The three year wait was due to characteristics George built into these two people, not due to some uncanonical character created 25 years after the fact. To assume that much power in someone else's universe is the height of arrogance and disrespect. Lastly (for now at least ) I'd like to comment on the idea that Han said various things in the trilogy b/c he said them to bria before. The same argument as above applies; how can a character who wasn't even created have any bearing at all on what's said in the trilogy? she can't. Some of those lines in question were specifically tailored to fit H/L by people like Irvin Kershner, Harrison Ford and George Lucas. To try and insert another meaning for those lines other than what those three intended is ridiculous. And as always, don't forget the RotJ novelization! ;D
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carebear5006@hotmail.com
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Post by carebear5006@hotmail.com on Nov 2, 2001 23:04:20 GMT -5
Well now that the smoke cleared (still confused about everything that went on...) I still don't get why people think Han was happy in ANH. To me it looked like a cover up for someone who was badly hurt. In ANH it looked to me like both Han and Leia were carrying emotional baggage and not ready for a relationship. The ROTJ novelization is the third level of canon and it is anulled by the movie canon which showed that Han was hurt in ANH. Jenny was cut and doesn't exist. Sorry, Adi, but you know I love ya And I am still getting around to your HC post, but it will take me a while I must say you quite floored me with it, good job
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Post by 'Guest' on Nov 3, 2001 8:44:34 GMT -5
Uhhh I still don't see how Han was suppoedly "hurt by love". I'm sorry, when I saw ANH and like every 3-D person I know who saw it, no one thought Han was some heartbroken guy in it. Leia was carrying around emotional baggage, and so was Han probably from years of living on the edge and the debt hanging over his head, but maybe I'm just dense I don't see the love thing at all when I watch ANH. He's already flirting with Leia, with the wink, and what he says to Luke in the novelization he thinks it may be teasing, or maybe because he really felt that way. The 3 year wait was a combination of Leia not being ready (due to inexperience and Alderaan - would you be willing to get into a relationship with a guy you didn't even know was staying after you had lost your entire world? I wouldn't), Luke, Han not being able to stay because of the debt he was in, and because it's gonna take some time for two such strong willed people to overcome their defenses and fall in love. I dont' think you needed to bring "Han was heartbroken and burnt by some woman" into it. One of my best relationships, I knew the guy for like four years before anything happened. Just cause we didn't hook up right away when we met it doesn't mean he or me was all heartbroken over someone else. And the female orders thing, of course Han's not gonna wanna take orders from some girl who's ten years younger who tells him "from now on you do as I tell you to". I think MOST guys I know would have a problem with that, if they had or hadn't been burnt by another woman! Bah..I have more to say but I'll shut up now
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Post by Toryn Farr on Nov 3, 2001 8:49:13 GMT -5
hehe, thanks, a person, you make some good points. I think its true what you said about Han not taking orders from a woman. Bria or no bria, he wouldn't have done it anyway. It only adds to his rebellious attitude that she's a princess. We know Han doesn't like authority (which has NOTHING to do with Bria)and will disrespect it any time he gets a chance. Allowing 3 years between ANH and ESB also shows how Han could have developed enough to respect General Rieekan.
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Post by 'Guest' on Nov 3, 2001 11:56:15 GMT -5
Yeah, Han would have a problem, like most men, of a girl who they had just rescued but was trying to boss them around and was being ungrateful. I think most men would. As for Han being reluctant in ESB, I just dont' see it. Leia is the one that's playing hard to get, shying away, Han is making all the moves, filling in the blanks. Read the ESB novelization (which BTW also has a line which annulls Bria's existence like the ROTJ does) for proof on this. Han decided Leia's game of "hard to get" was worth it, because he had fallen for her hard, he had chosen to play it. I'm sure if inbetween ANH and ESB Leia had not been so reluctant and scared, Han had not had the bounty hanging over his head, Han would have willingly gotten into a relationship with Leia. He was ready for it by the beginning of ESB, who knows how long it had been going on for and Leia had been rebuffing him. As for the "I know" thing - just LOOK at Han's eyes in that still - no WAY he is thinking of anyone but Leia.
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Birkendoc
New Member
Searching for excellence, finding mediocrity.
Posts: 4
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Post by Birkendoc on Nov 3, 2001 17:27:25 GMT -5
Okay gang, I want to apologize first to all of you for what will be a rather angry post. Toryn, I am going to try my best to stay with in your "thou shall not flame" rule, but feel free to edit me if I start coloring outside the lines...
An open letter to BriaTharen921:
Okay, chickie, you duped us. You have had your jollies, but you are not Ann C. Crispin. You are some nameless individual that choses to hide behind someone else's name. I don't even know your real name, and at this point, I really don't care what it is. I won 't even begin to discuss how internet harassment can teeter on a federal crime and how impersonating another individual head you down a similar path. And yes, you did stalk us and harass us. There is no debate here. What you did was inexcusable.
It's a shame you could not afforded me the same respect I gave you in the few private emails we shared. I am now kicking myself in the posterior for even offering to have a mature dialogue with someone I thought was a mature adult. But no, you decided to jerk several of us around, lie, harass and threaten us each systematically, all the while hiding behind another persona.
Thanks so much for trying to screw us over.
It isn't as though we have enough real worries in this ever hateful world that we have to enter into to this fruitless song and dance of deception. Now we have to worry about cyberharassment. We didn't seek you out to harass, so why did you find it so compelling to hunt us down?
Are you happy with yourself? I certainly am waiting for a real explanation. Perhaps you have a personal identity crisis. If that is the case, I suggest that you make an appointment to deal with this. Perhaps you wanted to scare the pants off us who dare to speak our minds. Unless you are willing to let us know your motives, then I suppose we will never know.
It became quite clear rather quickly that several of us were singled out for harassment. But rest assured, we are all free thinking women that will always speak our minds. Freedom of speech is an intangible right that no one can take away. It is something we hold dear and will defend vigorously if threatened.
Now you have had your cyberjollies, I invite you to return to this forum and explain yourself. You have heard my opinion on this matter, now I wish to hear yours.
Birkendoc
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Post by Anncrispin@aol.com on Nov 3, 2001 19:51:40 GMT -5
Hello.
This is A.C. Crispin. Toryn can verify my identity from checking my email address.
I'm very sorry that this Bria Tharen person used my name to insult and threaten the people on this board.
I read "her" postings and it was obvious she adapted my own words from postings in the Force.net. She actually did a very creditable imitation of my posting style. IMHO, instead of spending her time impersonating a minor author, she should take some writing courses...it's possible she has talent.
It distresses me to see that so many people on this forum see me as some kind of evil Machiavelli, twisting and turning every aspect of the Star Wars epic to achieve my own evil ends. It's not true. I'm just an author that was hired to write some books. All I had to go on to create a plotline that would fill an entire trilogy was to study Han Solo...every speech, every gesture, every expression.
I'm sorry people perceive my characterization as erroneous. I'm sorry people on this board seem to believe that I set out to harm or belittle Han and Leia's relationship. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Because of the events on this board, and BriaTharen921's impersonation, and the bad impression of me she managed to create, I'm taking a sabbatical from Star Wars fandom. Maybe I'll come back next year, when things have calmed down a bit.
Glitterbug, I'm glad you liked my books, but I assure you that you're reading far too much into them. You found "meanings" in my books that I never wrote into them. I'm pretty sure that Han never thought of Bria at all when he was about to be dumped into the carbonite chamber.
Birkenstock, out of all the folks who've posted in this "Bria Bashing" topic, you actually seem to understand pretty well what I was trying to accomplish.
Anyway, the books are written, and can't be recalled, for good or ill. Read them or don't read them, it can make little difference at this point.
Thanks for your attention, and I wish you all the best. Again, I'm sorry for anyone that suffered hurt feelings and thought I was the person inflicting them.
And as for BriaTharen921...
Whoever you are..don't ever pull this stunt again. I have a pit bull for a lawyer, and you will regret it, trust me.
MTFBWY'all,
-Ann C. Crispin
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Post by Toryn Farr on Nov 3, 2001 20:15:56 GMT -5
Thanks, Crispin. Actually when you post as a guest I can't identify anything, but whatever. Its all good. I think now that things have been cleared up there's really no hard feelings left among us. My opinion of you really hasn't been affected by this. But if you feel you need to leave, then thats your perogative. And thanks for clearing up Bria's character a bit. I still think she was taken too far, but its good to hear your side of it. Sorry, glitter, but I hafta give you one big *smirk* now on a side note, everyone say a prayer for my bronx boys...
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Post by Adi_Gallia on Nov 3, 2001 20:59:00 GMT -5
Hey Glitter! Thanks for the compliment; it means a lot coming from you. You know I love you too. Anyway, I do want to address something you mentioned about Han being happy/unhappy in ANH. I really can't understand how you think he's been hurt, but I respect you and your opinion and so I'll try to explain why I think he isn't. Question for everyone: when you first saw Star Wars (which was before we knew about bria; except for you Glit, though but that's ok. ) what were your impressions of Han? I personally feel in love with him for his attitude and sense of humor. And I can unbiasly say that I never for a second thought he had been hurt by love. Most definately not. He was an individual; he'd had his ladies but they didn't mean much at all. I can bet that no one seriously thought he was hurt in ANH. Those who do think he was tend to have read the HST before seeing the movies. George never intended for anyone to interpret Han as hurt in ANH and no one ever did until they'd read HST. And I don't need to remind people that the books are less canon than the movies. And speaking of canon, about Jenny. She might not have made it into the movies, but she did make it into the novel, making her more canon then bria even. There's nothing in the movies that contradicts her existence so she is indeed canon.
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Post by Toryn Farr on Nov 3, 2001 21:06:01 GMT -5
hehe, we all love glitter. hmm...when i first saw star wars.... no, i didnt think han was hurt by love. that thought never crossed my mind, even after i read HST. I'm not saying Bria didn't hurt him, I think she hurt him more than anyone ever had, Han just doesnt show it. He's pretty much moved on by ANH. Her death really sealed it for him.
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Post by 'Guest' on Nov 3, 2001 21:14:09 GMT -5
I just wanted to post something about Mary Sues and the HST. This is a list by someone named Steve which I think everyone should see. I agree with the list whole-heartedly. Perhaps Crispin should have distanced herself from her one desires when she wrote the HST.
Here's the list:
Alright, Bria tops ANY Mary Sue I have EVER read, SW or not. When I finished the books I thought, "Good grief, I just read one huge Mary Sue fanfic!" How contrived is it that she started the Rebellion, she was Han's first true love, AND stole the Death Star plans with her bare hands??!!
Have you ever taken the Mary Sue litmus test with her? Bria scores off the charts!
Lessee here:
- red-gold hair - NUMBER ONE sign of Mary Sue-ism
- beautiful
- Han falls for her on sight
- falls in love with/has sex with the main hero
- breaks the main hero's heart - said main hero pines away for her for ten years
- hero worships her like there's no tomorrow
- completley downplays and minimizes other women in Han's life, Xaverri, etc. to focus on her pet character. Crystal Star said Han loved Xaverri, may have ended up with her if she hadn't left, why is she given about three pages in THG? Han names his ship after Bria while seeing Salla, another girlfriend who was downplayed?
- More Mary Sue-isms:
- can speak Wookiee
- pitch-perfect singing voice
- single-handedly starts the Rebellion (and you thought Mon Mothma and Bail did! Pfft..)
- gets Alderaan into the Rebellion
- is an angel to the Rebellion troops
- even moves the heart of Boba Fett, fearless bounty hunter!
- animals like her
- can easily manipulate guys with her looks and coyness
- all the Han/Bria stuff is pure Mary-Sueism, won't go into details
- steals the Death Star plans
- biggest Mary Sue offense of all: dies. At least Hambly had the dignity to have her Mary Sue leave with grace when her and Luke realized it was not meant to be. Crispin pulled the ultimate Mary Sue and offed Bria with some mentality "If she can't have him, no one will" and implied Han was on the rebound in ANH. Ugh....
Just wanted to share this little thing will you all.
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Post by 'Guest' on Nov 3, 2001 21:34:29 GMT -5
Ha ha awesome list! Woohoo whoever wrote that had the right interpretation of HST aka Chronicles of Bria Tharen the greatest Mary Sue to ever live.
And when I saw Han in ANH I saw him as someone who had lived a hard life, learned to depend on no one but himself and his blaster (and Chewie of course) You don't need to be hurt by love to become cynical. I have friends who are cynical and uninterested in love and other idealistic things because they've had a tough life growing up. It doesn't mean they had to be heartbroken first.
And whatever, if Crispin's plot device was for Bria to hurt Han, why not use Xaverri? Instead she downplayed Xaverri to like 5 pages, this further proves Bria was a Mary Sue. I could see Bria in the first book or so to make Han cynical of relationships, but there was no need for her to take over the trilogy the way she did. Talk about overdoing it that she started the Rebellion AND Han was obsessed with her! Come on.
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Post by Toryn Farr on Nov 3, 2001 21:40:25 GMT -5
hehe, steves also on my list of people i love.
yeh, the rebellion thing really bothers me. Whatever happened to the Corellian Treaty? Do Bail, Mon Mothma and Bel Iblis not matter anymore?
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Post by Adi_Gallia on Nov 3, 2001 22:18:03 GMT -5
EU authors seem to have this thing where their original characters do everything. Like start the Rebellion and get the Death Star plans. I do wonder every once and a while if they've ever heard of continuity.
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